Guidefitter Spotlight Episode 12: Phil Benson, Zamberlan North America

Transcript

Bryan Koontz (00:02), Hi, the following is a conversation with Phil Benson. Phil is the general manager and partner with Zamberlan I learned how to say it correctly. I used to say Zamberlan. I think most people call it Zamberlan in the US. But nonetheless, Zamberlan Zamberlan, a great Italian boot company, and they've been a partner of Guidefitter for a while. Phil has recently come back to Zamberlan. He was very much involved years ago in bringing the hunting product line of boots from Zamberlan to the United States.

Bryan Koontz (00:02), And we get into a great conversation about the origins of Zamberlan its connections to the Vibram Sole Company, or pronounce it Vibram, which I also learned from Phil. So join me in this conversation with Phil. also talk about where innovation is going with hunting boots and what we can expect from Zamberlan coming up this year. Thank you and welcome to the Guidefitter Spotlight.

Bryan Koontz (00:01), just to make sure we can see your audio levels. So you can sing us a tune or say Mary had a little lamb.

Phil (00:08), Sure, yeah. How's this sounding right now? Yeah. It looks like I'm getting up in the yellow bar area.

Bryan Koontz (00:12), How's that? Is that good? It's not clipping. Yeah, cool, good. It's not screaming. yeah. It's so funny. We've learned a lot. Thanks, Poldi. I think we're good. Everything else OK with the camera? OK. We've learned a lot just talking to various people when you talk to anyone and everyone from Texas to wherever. And there's various levels of sophistication with, you know, this kind of thing or headphones and you sometimes there's like a kid running around in the background or like there's a or like one guy tried to one guy wanted to talk like sort of in the in the production area which was cool because it was a neat background but it was just like like the background noise we you know so anyway we're by no means podcast experts or whatnot but we're we're figuring it out we started this just because there was a lot there were a lot of our partners that you know, it was pretty clear that we were trying to like go too far too fast. Zamberlan was in a whole different ballgame, but there's a lot of really cool upstart companies out there that are innovating and doing neat things with outdoor gear and all of that. and, but, you know, and I've tried to coach them. like, Hey, look, your, your job. Number one is to make sure people know who you are and what like that you exist. And then we can worry, you know, then let's talk about.

Phil (01:30), Mm-hmm.

Bryan Koontz (01:43), diving head first into sales and all of that and trying to get your product out there, of course. And so we thought this would be a neat way to do that. And with the cost of putting stuff like this together has come down, you know, 10 years ago, it wasn't even like this. We have like a little, you know, the mics and all this stuff and took a little bit of education, but it's been fun. I've learned a ton. I love these conversations. So.

Phil (02:03), Long form conversation is one of the best methods for communicating. mean, whether you're trying to tell folks about your brand values or, you know, just essentially just tell your story. mean, having a conversation that's a little iterative and back and forth, it really gets to the nuance and to the main ideas in a way that you can't in any other format. So it's, I love it. Podcasts are great.

Bryan Koontz (02:27), Yeah, I know. listen to quite a few. It's my back and forth to work and I don't finish them all because some of them are like three hours long. It's like, we occasionally drive here. I live in Bozeman, Montana. And so I've done two separate trips up to Whitefish, Montana, which is a beautiful area close to the Canadian border and where Glacier is and all that. so that's about a five, five and a half hour drive. So, you you can cover some podcast ground, you know, on the way up and back from that. So it's fun.

Phil (02:36), Ha

Phil (02:36), Mm-hmm.

Phil (02:36), For sure, yeah.

Bryan Koontz (02:57), So you've been, you your background, you've been in and around the outdoor industry and consulting and investing and for a while. And I have to say, I have to point out, you and I share a common employer. Actually, I looked at your, I was snooping on your LinkedIn. If you go all the way back in your history, I also was sort of an intern for a while, at two different times with Harley Davidson in Milwaukee. Yeah.

Phil (03:13), Who's that? yeah, yes. Yeah, it's. really? And why was that? You were, you were doing some, some engineering for them or what were you, what were you working on?

Bryan Koontz (03:25), Back in the 90s, me also in the 90s. Yeah, as part of my undergraduate, I was a mechanical engineering student at Penn State. I see you went to Wharton. they had a program. Harley came to interview. And anyway, it was like a work study program. It extended my degree by one year. But then I worked two different full semesters at Harley as an engineer in the acoustics department. So I was doing acoustics research. No, I was at the.

Phil (03:40), Mm-hmm. Right. Was that at the Pennsylvania plant where they were there? No, was that in Milwaukee? Nice.

Bryan Koontz (04:00), That was in Milwaukee at the HQ. We did some stuff at the York plant at the time. We traveled out and spent some time at the facility to do some various stuff as bikes were coming off the assembly line and stuff. So yeah, but anyway, yeah.

Phil (04:13), But yeah, very interesting. I loved my time there. was, you know, it was classic. mean, I was doing process for them. was there like six, eight, nine months, something like that. my last year I was going to Marquette in Milwaukee. but I got to work side by side with Karen Davidson, who was, yeah, that was, that was really interesting. And just being in that whole corporate environment day in and day out was.

Bryan Koontz (04:28), Okay.

Bryan Koontz (04:28), know, I know. I remember, Karen. Yeah.

Phil (04:42), was pretty inspiring to see how such a heritage, iconic heritage brand works on a day-to-day basis to see kind of under the hood. And I've been able to work with a number of really marquee brands out there. I spent a little time at Disney and a little time at Warner Music, but a lot of time at Kimberly Clark, another classic Wisconsin company, and through my consulting with a number of others. you start to see commonalities and in marquee brands and how they operate. it was just, I mean, that first start at Harley-Davidson for me was my first professional work environment. And that launched me into Kimberly Clark, actually.

Bryan Koontz (05:22), Wow. I learned a hard lesson, a good lesson at Harley. So as a member of the engineering department, I had access to the fleet bikes, which was awesome because I had my motorcycle license. Still do. I haven't ridden in a while. So I could just kind of go down to the fleet, talk to the fleet manager, check a bike out, drive one around, know, whatever, whatever I want to do. And then as an engineer, I was also constantly looking to put instrumentation on the bikes, little accelerometers and microphones and other things. And the rule was you can't like don't know maintenance on the bike as an engineer, you got to have someone from the shop come up. You know, I'm like, all right. I, and I couldn't get, I couldn't find someone. was trying to do this thing and all I needed to do is mount this little instrument on the handlebar. And I'm like, I know how to use a wrench. This is ridiculous. So I went over, grabbed the, grabbed a wrench and I'm wrenching on this bolt on the top of the handle and I'm mounting the thing in this older shop guy, you know, foreman, whatever it comes in. He's like, what are you doing there? You know, I kind of already knew from the tone that I was doing something wrong. I was like, I'm just mounting this thing. Like it's I didn't need to call you guys. It's one bolt. And he's like, mm hmm. Yeah. But the thing is, that's the banjo bolt. So you just loosened all of the brake lines, you know, something like that. I was like, crap. So I learned I learned my lesson as a kid who thought he knew everything. But now how did you so?

Phil (06:37), Yep. Yep.

Bryan Koontz (06:40), outdoor stuff. it's pretty clear that you really have sort of steered here and there, it seems like you've been there and you've keep coming back. There's a common theme, I guess, of your career, which is outdoors and outdoor industry. Tell me more about that.

Phil (06:56), Yeah, I've been in the outdoor industry since 2007. you know, that was and that's been a constant, right? So I haven't left the industry. I mean, I did have a little bit more recently where I went into more of the private equity space, but that was still within, you know, within the outdoor market. So I really haven't left since 2007. And I first came in starting my own platform at the time. Right. So left management consulting, started a distribution platform and started bringing brands from overseas into the North American outdoor market. So all in, I've launched six, I'm going to say six brands into the North American outdoor market with Zamberlan being, you know, one of my clients early on and the most successful client that I ultimately stuck with and, you know, decided to become exclusive to.

Bryan Koontz (07:49), And so you just, I'm making a note because you just said Zamberlan So that's the proper way to pronounce it, not Zambrolin. Zamberlan.

Phil (07:55), Right. Yeah, I've got, well, you know, I've, I've been fluent in Spanish since for a long time, many decades. So, you know, it's, I have that, that enunciation down that Latin enunciation down. so the family, when they say their name, it's Zamberlan right? if you're in the States, you're going to say Zamberlan and that's totally acceptable, you know, either way. also say, you know, like, like with Vibram, I say, Vibram, right. As an, as an example, right. So, you know, there's, there's little nuance here and there. So.

Bryan Koontz (08:02), Okay. Sure, right. V room, right. Got it.

Phil (08:25), I'm not trying to one up anybody, it's just so many meetings with the family and year in and year out, you just pick up everything in terms of how they say it.

Bryan Koontz (08:34), There's a lot of outdoor brands like that. Like I think even the sister brand of Swarovski Kahles, know, a lot of people in US would say Kales. You know, and I just learned, you know, in the footwear space, not hunting Adidas, you know, I didn't know it was Adidas because it's because it's short for a person's name Adidasler, who is the founder of Adidas, who I think if I'm not wrong, started it with his brother had a fallout his brother went and started Puma. I think there's some history there. Yeah, but

Phil (08:41), Mm. Right? Adidas, yeah. okay, yeah.

Bryan Koontz (09:04), Well, and Zamberlan so Zamberlan has a really, I think, an interesting story. It's not uncommon. It's, you know, family in the early, you know, at the turn of the century, living in the mountains. But maybe you could tell us a little bit about like how did Zamberlan get started. And yeah, a little bit about its origin story.

Phil (09:27), Yeah, so the founder was actually the grandfather of the current operators of the company. It's so... Zamberlan is a family name. That's where... That's correct.

Bryan Koontz (09:35), It's still in the family? It's not sold out to big corporate holdings or anything like that? Okay.

Phil (09:40), That's correct. Yeah. So there are, there, there isn't one outside investor that owns a minority share of the company. but the, the family owns the majority. They control it. A third generation family owned and operated is, is what we would say. so Giuseppe was the guy who founded it. He was a cobbler at the time and a mountaineer really entrenched in that, that mountain community in the same town that they're in today, which is called Scio.

Bryan Koontz (09:54), Yeah.

Phil (10:07), Technically Torre Belvicino is the little neighborhood outside of town there. And he was just fixing shoes and building shoes for the locals and decided to start a company. And that was how the brand was born, essentially. Very similar to what you might hear from a lot of other founders in the space, right? It's like the Hestra Gloves guy. Base of the Dolomites, making stuff for his friends, and he's like, let's start a company.

Bryan Koontz (10:20), That's awesome. Yeah.

Phil (10:30), It's funny because when we were chatting a little bit before we got started here, yeah, Hestra comes to mind because there's so many parallels. It's like base of the mountains, know, are sort of already doing a similar sort of thing and realize that the glove market, you know, for the skiers and that sort of turned into a thing. And Hestra is still held by the family as well. Now, Hestra is named after not the family, but the area, but still lots of commonalities. So, yeah, that's pretty interesting.

Bryan Koontz (11:01), Yeah, you get that with other brands too. You look at Osolo, right? I mean, they're they're named after the area.

Phil (11:07), Right, right, right. And there's a there are a lot of I mean, we're not going to talk about a whole bunch of other companies on this chat. you know, but if you look like, you know, Scarpa and Soleil and L 'Ospitiva and those and I and I was like, why is that? I'm like, you idiot. Right. Like you have the Alps right there. Right. There's just this culture of of, you know, mountaineering and all of that. And I and I wonder

Bryan Koontz (11:25), Is that part of like, because it just seems in general, even outside of mountaineering in the Alps, like Italy is known for footwear. I mean, it's known for clothing and some other stuff, too. Why did you? Why is that? don't I don't know why that is. But it seems like there's just like this guild system over centuries, maybe of, you know, just artisans and that really know. They know, I've heard that when you go into some of those like northern Italy, you know, shoe factories.

Phil (11:50), Mm -hmm.

Bryan Koontz (12:01), There's shelves full of the lasts or the foot molds, I think they're called lasts, that have been there for like, it's like my great -great -grandfather's lasts and we still use them, you know. Anyway, it just seems like it's culturally woven into Italian fabric.

Phil (12:10), Right. Well, you get that. Yeah. And different areas have different concentrations in terms of the type of footwear that they're manufacturing, right? You know, whether it's the luxury footwear or the, you know, the, boot market, as an example, Montalbuna really comes to mind where you see a lot of these marquee brands. They're like Sportiva, Scarpa, Oslo, you know, Aku, those all come to mind there. you know, and so you get these, these areas where you get concentrations of labor that's skilled, and they kind of feed off of each other.

Phil (12:33), you start to get suppliers in that area and so forth. And then you have deliberate decisions by the government to really support that industry and create an export oriented environment. And that's really, mean, if you look at Italy today, they have policies in place to really support their exporters and to support their local manufacturers. And under the guise of, you know, made in Italy, that made in Italy moniker, you know, under the, basically the precept of superior quality and so forth, whether it's food or eyewear or fashion or, you know, even, you know, footwear, just in Zamberlan's town alone as an example. That's where the fabric, the Jacquard fabric was invented to give you to to put something in the perspective there. Right. So, you know, that that is a is a is an interesting development innovation that came right from their area. In fact, the family is going to be introducing footwear next year that features.

Bryan Koontz (13:27), Hmm.

Phil (13:37), you know, that fabric and some of their footwear. It's very interesting application. You've got Hugo Bosses nearby and they've got a factory there where they make a lot of their textiles for, you know, for their clothing and so forth. But what's interesting about Zamberlan and all of that is that they're not in one of those footwear concentration areas. They're a little bit outside of it. So while they've gotten the benefit of having those suppliers and so forth nearby and some labor around

Bryan Koontz (13:56), OK.

Phil (14:04), they've been able to develop over the decades really in a different way, kind of unfettered by what you see kind of like this incestuous sharing of workers and ideas and so forth among those other brands. So the tenants of their brand as they're expressed in the final product are unique and they're different. And it really sets the brand apart from like Ascarpa, Sportiva, Oslo and Aku and others, right, and Salewa. and you, you, you start to see that difference, you know, manifests itself in, in, know, the, the, the customers that we serve and the products that we put out in the market today. And so it's really interesting, how that, how that develops. And I can get into detail on that if you want, but I mean, I think that's what makes, you know, when you compare Zamblan to other brands that are coming out of Italy, not only the fact that they're 95 years old and their family owned and so forth, but it's. You know, it's the fact that they've been able to do it in a way that's a little bit different. Still influenced by the Alps and the mountains. You walk out of the factory and those mountains shoot up right in front of your face, right? They're right there. You know, you can't escape it. It's inescapable. know, yeah, it's amazing. It's beautiful. You got to see it.

Bryan Koontz (15:03), Hmm. Wow. Kind of on a tour now, but yeah. And so is what you're saying is that because they were just outside of the rest, that they weren't maybe subject to kind of groupthink or like house design kind of things like, everyone's doing that. Well, we're doing a little bit differently over there because we're not hanging out over there or we didn't hire the lead designer seven times from the guy who's been circling around and that kind of thing. OK, I don't know.

Phil (15:23), Mm. Correct. Yes, that is exactly the point. That is exactly the point. And you see it in terms of like, you know, look at different categories. Like if you look at, you know, one category that you could compare between the brands is the Alpine category of product, right? Where you might have these other brands that are really hyper -focused on a super ultra lightweight, highly, you know, technical performance oriented product that's extremely anatomical, right? Make it as light as possible, as fast as possible and so forth. You know, they're sacrificing essentially warmth and durability and to some extent to do that. Whereas Zamberlan’s focus has been a little bit more towards almost like a walking focus and a hiking focus in that area. And their product in that category is coming out. It's warmer. it's more durable. it's still very light and, and, you performance oriented, but it encapsulates some other, you know, tenants of, of performance around there. And so the products are appreciated in that way, right? And for those, for those reasons. And you can say the same about a lot of the other categories of product that they're making. They're just made a little bit different with a little different orientation. And that's why I think, you know, after 95 years of really working on that fit and the comfort and all of those aspects of the boots, we're so differentiated in the market, why our products fit better on the American foot than a lot of other Italian brands do in general because of that focus, right? That focus on comfort.

Bryan Koontz (17:03), Hmm. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. And there's another tie, I think, too, with Zamberlan to the footwear market. I think that goes all the way back to the founder, right, which is which are the ties to Vibram. And so I think I think it was before the Vibram sole, which is like, I mean, it's like the sole, right? I if you have a boot, want you want a Vibram sole on it. There's some other great ones out there. But I mean, Vibram like is the is the one.

Phil (17:05), Mm. Yes, yeah.

Bryan Koontz (17:30), I think it was what before vibram it was just like leather leather leather went all the way around with some spikes in the bottom or something like I don't know like there wasn't really an outer soul kind of concept at the turn of this night you know at the turn of the century.

Phil (17:38), Yeah. It was fascinating because you can see these pieces in the the Zamberlan factory today. They've got like some showcases where they have a lot of the boots throughout history and you see the leather turned around on it on the bottom and it's you know and then you've got the spikes pounded through the leather and it's basically just metal spikes, some rounded studs, some more sharper angles and so forth. But that was that was how mountaineering boots were before and then you know Vitali Bramani went to Giuseppe and said, hey, I've got this idea for an all rubber outsole. Will you help me get this off the ground? And so he helped him start his company and became his first customer. that's how the Vibram company was started. The rest is kind of history.

Bryan Koontz (18:22), Interesting. So Zamberlan was the first vibram sole, vibram sole, vibram sole. They were the first.

Phil (18:28), Yeah, and we've been pretty much exclusive since. Even if you look at the outsoles we use today, and this is getting to be a little bit more common knowledge with the brand, but I mean, we invest heavily through Vibram in developing, we would call it like new technologies or new platforms, using their outsoles, but different materials and combination materials and different design elements that, and creating new molds and so forth for very specific purposes. You can see across our line today, a wide variety of outsoles that are exclusive to Zamberlan that we've made the investment in, like our Star Trek 2 outsole that we're using on the Wasatch, on the Sawtooth and others. That's a few hundred thousand dollars invested in the development of that outsole, which is exclusive to the company for our use, right? And so designed for a very specific purpose with a specific rubber compound. and composition of PU materials inside to give really specific results on the mountain for different applications. And that's why you see us using five or six or seven different outsoles, even within our hunting collection.

Bryan Koontz (19:38), Yeah, huh, interesting. That's pretty cool. So you're really kind of collaborating on the R &D with those guys. You're not just taking whatever they make and sewing it onto the bottom of the boot kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, right, right.

Phil (19:45), Absolutely. That's right. No, it's really the the relationship is very intimate, you know, and, you know, I'll be honest, I mean, their their quality is is very high. We do all of our re -solding programs using those original outsoles, which we bring in and store in our warehouse and then make available to our select cobblers. You know, but if there's ever a problem, right, they're there, right. And they fix it, you know, and they're they're just it's a very high quality brand that not only adds a lot of value to our value proposition, because when you turn over the bottom of that boot and you see the Vibram logo on it, the customer knows that they're getting something that's high quality and performance oriented, but the fact that they're such an incredible supplier as well.

Bryan Koontz (20:25), Yeah. And they're still based in and around the area there? OK, out of Milan. OK, got it, got it. Super cool. Yeah, I didn't know that. I learned some.

Phil (20:33), They're out of Milan, yeah. Yeah, yep. Yeah, they're manufacturing, they've got global manufacturing, of course, they're a massive company.

Bryan Koontz (20:41), Yeah, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very cool. Now, so, OK, so company gets started with a mountaineering focus, makes sense. Obviously, over the years, product lines have expanded and so on. When was the, well, product lines and I would say sales and marketing territories, but let's stick with the product line for a second. When did the first hunting-oriented boot come out and what was the idea there? Like, what is different about a... a boot versus a mountaineering boot?

Phil (21:12), Yeah, it's a great question. As far as the history of when our first hunting boot came out, I don't know the exact answer to that. You know, hunters have been buying our core products for a long time. If you look at our, yeah, if you look at our backpacking collection that goes, I mean, we've got designs that we're selling today in backpacking that we've had in the catalog since the 1950s. You know, like one piece uppers, like our Trail Lite Evo. That's been, we've been selling that since like 1955 or something, something crazy.

Bryan Koontz (21:22), I would suspect so.

Phil (21:41), But, you know, hunters have been using the product, adapting it for their application for some time. Back in 2012, that's when we really started addressing the Western hunt market, the big game hunting market in the US, which is a unique proposition. It's unlike hunting pretty much anywhere else. I mean, sure, in South Asia, you get some really extreme hunting opportunities there and some extreme conditions, you know, in the mountains and so forth, as well as you do in parts of Italy. But in the Western U.S., you get a customer that is not only going out in these extreme conditions for their hunts, but they're living a lifestyle in the mountains, right? You know, we've got ambassadors that are in the mountains, you know, 250 plus days a year and just putting on hard miles all the time. And so that's a very different, you know, set of requirements for a boot than, say, a backpacker who's...

Bryan Koontz (22:24), True.

Phil (22:40), ...going down the PCT or something like that for a few weeks a year, as an example. Now, we've got a long history of developing product that's durable for extreme environments. I mean, we were shipping 10,000 pair of boots a year to Afghanistan a few years back for that effort, as an example. And that was our Chevette boot. We've had customers...

Bryan Koontz (23:00), So you supply the U.S. military.

Phil (23:04), We've done some selling to the U.S. military. That one was to, I believe, the Australian military, that 10,000 per year. But we supply NATO, the United Nations, Israeli special forces, a lot of different special forces units around the world, U.S. military special forces, whether it's like mountain infantry divisions or just real specialized units that are looking for specialty product.

Bryan Koontz (23:11), Got it. OK, gotcha. Great. Understood.

Phil (23:32), Yeah, it's really interesting that aspect of it. But as far as the hunting boot requirement goes, I mean, you got to have something that works, that lasts, that's comfortable, that can handle the inclines and the weight and isn't overly bulky and heavy to begin with because you can't weigh your hunter down, right? So it's the most difficult market that we serve from a product development perspective. That product just really gets... it gets beat up and gets, you know, it takes the worst of the brunt. I mean, they're the hardest customer to serve. So we were uniquely positioned to do that just given our history and given the types of products that we're already producing. So we started at that time in 2012, when we started going to the hunt expo in Salt Lake City. You know, we just started addressing that market by creating product for the Western hunter. And we've been doing so ever since pretty much every year we're bringing out something new...

Bryan Koontz (24:00), Sure.

Phil (24:27), ...for that market and for the market to use for different aspects of it. And what's really unique about the hunting market, especially in the U.S., is that there's so many different micro markets that compose it, right? But our focus has really been on that big game Western hunter and the rest kind of waterfalls from there. That was, yeah, that goes back to 2012. So, think about, you know, polyurethane midsoles, dual-density PU midsoles, Vibram outsoles, rubber rands, that sort of thing, different combinations and different designs, single piece uppers and so on that we really started developing and making so that you have this right balance between weight and performance and durability. We could make a boot that would last forever, but nobody would want to wear it because it would be so uncomfortable. And we could also make a boot that would be ultra-lightweight, but...

Bryan Koontz (25:16), Right.

Phil (25:19), ...wouldn't get you through a season. So you have to really find that right blend. And we've done that with a number of styles and have had a lot of success in that sense.

Bryan Koontz (25:26), Well, what's really interesting is that, you know, obviously, at Guidefitter, we know a lot of guides and, you know, when you go to so to see like the relationship, that's not the right word that a lot of guides have with their boots. But you go to a place like the Great American Outdoor Show in Harrisburg, where there's, you know, hundreds and hundreds of outfitters and guides. Guidefitter has had a booth there for a long time, many years. But you look around and there's a lot of guides wearing their boots, like they're hunting their guide boots.

Phil (25:54), Mm-hmm.

Bryan Koontz (25:56), I think it's just because they got them broken in. It's like a Sunday sweater, kind of a comfort thing, and they don't take them off. And it's something. And they have two or three pair, and they're all beat up, and they're proud. They're like, man, I've had these boots for seven years now, or whatever it is. I'm on my third sole, or whatever. So it's pretty clear. We have a lot of data on the product.

Phil (26:16), Yeah.

Bryan Koontz (26:25), Categories that guides care the most about, I mean all the gear matters but optics, boots, and packs. I mean those are the big three. I mean those are the big three I mean those are like they form the core of a pro hunting guides kit but you know pro hunting pro Western hunting guide kits for sure. So yeah anyway, I can see and the other thing that I just thought about as you were talking where your focus is on the West and there are all these other hunting, you know areas and zones.

Phil (27:21), You bet.

Bryan Koontz (27:22), For sure, there are a lot of specialty pieces of gear and parts of the kit that you just need if you're hunting Midwest versus Florida or Texas or whatever. But there is a theme that even for the hunter who never or rarely comes out West, there is that aspirational component of like, well, if a mountain guide in Montana is going to beat the crap out of a pair of boots, that's probably good enough for me in Pennsylvania when I'm going out for comfort.

Phil (27:21), You bet.

Bryan Koontz (27:22), A little bit. And so I think that that matters a lot. That's a great way to focus your product engineering efforts and so on.

Phil (27:29), Yeah, and when you take a look at the way our boots are engineered, I mean, most of them are built in with this nice rocker effect, right? With a fairly stiff midsole, but that rocker effect takes away kind of that discomfort of that stiff midsole, and it allows you to experience a technical fit that hugs the foot, which is unlike what most hunters have ever had on their feet before.

Bryan Koontz (27:55), Yeah.

Phil (27:56), Right? So the first time you put on like a 4014 Lynx Mid Boa and you're like, wow, that's, it's like a glove. And that is, to be honest, I, you know, I'm sure I'm a little biased, but I think that is probably the best fitting boot in the industry. You know, it's, you know, I can't tell you definitively that it is or isn't, right? It really depends on the foot, but the, we know about the fit of that product. We know about how that outsole matches with our last and creates an experience that's unlike anything else. And if you look at all of our boots and all of our collections, our best-selling products all have that 3D outsole on it with our ZBBK last because it's just really unique. And so if you're hunting, you know, whitetail in Wisconsin or you're, you know, doing a mule deer hunt down in, you know, down in Arizona or doing elk in Utah, that boot is working for just about everybody.

Bryan Koontz (28:34), Hmm.

Phil (28:50), Right. And so that's what's really nice about it. And now we've got these other products that are coming off the line as well, like our Salate Trek, which is really special, or, you know, like our Baltoro Lite, which is also really versatile, great on the mountain, great off the mountain. You can experience that fit and that quality, you know, wherever you are. Now, if you're, you know, if you're hunting whitetail in North Dakota, are you going to put it through the same paces as a guy, you know, doing it in Montana? Not as much, right.

Bryan Koontz (29:15), Yeah.

Phil (29:15), But it's just going to last longer for you then and you're still going to get that lightweight performance benefit where it's just going to feel great on your foot.

Bryan Koontz (29:24), Yeah, yeah, yeah. Huh. Yeah, interesting. Where do you think, like, you know, I guess that's a two-part question or two thoughts that just crossed in my head. Like, where is the market going for hunting boots? Boots in general, I guess, mountaineering, I'll kind of combine them—mountaineering and hunting boots, but let's just stick with hunting boots to keep it more focused. You know, like, what is there left to innovate? Like, you know, one would think that. And then how does that relate to where you guys are going? You know, or maybe it's not just...

Phil (29:48), Right?

Bryan Koontz (29:53), ...boots. Like, would you guys ever get into something other than footwear because of your experience with the market and all of that? Like, you know, what is your roadmap? And then also just with footwear, you know, I'm assuming it's lighter, faster, more durable, more comfortable, more waterproof, more breathable. Those always seem to be the characteristics. But I don't know, you know, I don't live in this area every day.

Phil (30:13), Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, and that's a great question because, you know, where does innovation go? Because if you look at the products on the market today, there's great product all over the place, right? You know, and, you know, I always tell people this, that fit trumps anything else, right? So if you put on one of our boots, you hear these great things about it, you're like, I love all these aspects of the brand and the history and so forth. But if it doesn't fit your foot, well, then it's not a great boot for you, right?

Bryan Koontz (30:25), Yeah.

Phil (30:43), So that's really important. So you got to find something that works for your foot and your fit. That's number one. But in terms of, you know, the roadmap of where things are going, that's really interesting. There's always going to be innovation there. The innovation going forward is going to be about a couple of things. One is about versatility of product. You know, being able to have boots that you can do a lot of different things in. We're really starting to see that more and more. If you look at our Salate Trek that we've had that we introduced this last year, this boot...

Bryan Koontz (31:04), Hmm.

Phil (31:12), ...is, we call it our kind of our truck-to-summit type boot, right? It's great for early season. It's great for off-season. It's great for hiking. Yeah, you can do scrambling in it. Rocky conditions, just on the trail or off. The versatility of this product is off the charts, and it's been recognized as such. So it's won like five major best-in-class awards on two different continents just this spring, right? As a result of that. Yeah, I mean, it's been Outside Magazine, Backpacker Magazine...

Bryan Koontz (31:20), Interesting.

Bryan Koontz (31:42), Wow. Yeah.

Phil (31:42), You know, Alpine Magazine in Italy, Outdoor Magazine in Canada. I mean, just all over, it's just been really, it's been garnering a lot of attention. So...

Bryan Koontz (31:51), I like that. I like that mental picture—truck to summit. Like, you know, yeah, that makes sense. You're not changing when you get out of the truck to go to your climb. You know, what's just as a small side note, it's really interesting that as you talk about this, because I think that that trend is starting to bubble up, and not just in footwear. Like, we recently partnered with Mammut, you know, another great mountaineering brand, not in the footwear industry, obviously in apparel. And one of their motivations for...

Phil (31:55), Yep.

Bryan Koontz (32:19), ...reaching out to us actually, which made us feel good, was yeah, same kind of thing. It's like, look, our apparel is a premium product. It's expensive, but it's worth it and all that. And they pointed out, we believe someone's going to go bear hunting in the morning, maybe get a couple runs down the ski slope, come down, maybe fly fish in the afternoon, and then head out to the pub or whatever with their significant other later in the evening all wearing the same coat.

Phil (32:53), Very key.

Bryan Koontz (33:17), ...and maybe something else that we have, like the versatility that comes back. Performance and versatility, you know, and there's a lot that plays into that because people are willing to pay up for premium products, but then they don't want seven of them because, you know, I think this is what's happening in the apparel industry. A bit of what's happening with, you know, especially the younger generation, not really caring that much about camouflage. It's like, give me a subtle tone and great, I'd rather have that so I don't look like a douche when I'm going out to dinner wearing my, what, camo jacket, you know, that...

Phil (33:17), Right?

Bryan Koontz (33:45), ...cost me $480 or whatever. Anyway, so I think there's a lot of that versatility trending when it comes to product innovation and all that. And so it's interesting that you see that sitting in the footwear market.

Phil (33:53), Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we see it in the hike side. We see it on the hunt side. You know, it's really, it's really important, especially as prices have climbed, right? And you've got, you know, really a consumer who's been hit by so much inflation recently, you know, to be able to have a product that can do a lot of different things for them on a very high level. And so our products like the Salate, the Salate Trek, you know, and now the Thunder Pro, which is coming out in the spring, are all geared towards that.

Bryan Koontz (34:00), Yeah.

Phil (34:24), The other area where you're seeing a lot of innovation is around sustainability. So yeah, that's huge, of course, right now in footwear. So we're going through a transition right now in the industry, which is kind of rocking the footwear industry and the outdoor apparel industry in the United States right now. And that's the transition with PFAS, right? So I don't know to what extent your readers are aware, but the states of California and Maine have mandated by January 1, 2025, that all...

Bryan Koontz (34:30), All right. Yep.

Phil (34:24), ...outdoor apparel and footwear be PFAS-free.

Bryan Koontz (34:26), Can you explain to the listeners what is PFAS? What does this even mean? Well, maybe at a high level.

Phil (34:30), Yeah, I don't know if I can. Maybe you're the one for that one, but yeah, it's polyfluoroalkyl substances, and they're chemicals, you know, within certain components of, you know, footwear and apparel for the outdoors, things that make them, you know, durable and waterproof and so forth. You even see them in firefighting equipment and so forth. So we've got, you know, wildland fire boots, for example, that would have it in them, you know, leveraging like Nomex materials on the uppers. For us, primarily, the...

Bryan Koontz (35:03), Hmm.

Phil (35:28), ...PFAS is found in the Gore-Tex membranes, right? Which make it waterproof and breathable. Gore-Tex has innovated recently, and they've come out with their EPE membranes, which are PFAS-free. But we, just like every other brand that leverages Gore-Tex and these membranes, are having to transition the entire line of products. So we've had to redevelop every single product in our lineup within a span of 15 months.

Bryan Koontz (35:33), Mm-hmm.

Phil (35:28), ...and then sell through and sell out of all of the old product just to meet these deadlines.

Bryan Koontz (35:42), And I think, is it the idea that California and Maine are doing this because the idea is like when you chuck the old jacket that's full of PFAS, then it's bad for the environment because it's going in the ground and it's just bad for the environment? So let's stop that. But the industry has become very reliant on that. That's sort of built in, literally, to the fabric of the industry. And so that's a retooling of everything.

Phil (35:42), Exactly. Yeah.

Phil (35:42), That's right. That's right.

Bryan Koontz (36:02), Mm-hmm.

Phil (36:02), Yeah, so you're seeing that transition happen now, but it's even going beyond that. Whether it's adding more recycled content where it makes sense to the products without compromising durability and so forth, using materials that are more eco-friendly. For example, we use leathers that are produced under the guidelines of the Leather Working Group, which means they're more environmentally sustainable and so forth. We've got other leathers in our lineup that are tanned...

Bryan Koontz (36:24), Hmm.

Phil (36:28), ...without using chemicals the way that they were, you know, 100 and some years ago, using the fats of the animal and so forth. You know, so there's a lot of different aspects of that. But sustainability in general is going to continue to become increasingly more important, and there's going to be more heat on that. And so, you know, the brand, you know, Zamberlan has always addressed the sustainability aspect through durability. The fact that you can use the product year after year after year, you can get it resoled.

Bryan Koontz (36:59), Sure.

Phil (36:59), You make an investment, and it's not a disposable product like you see with so many others that are mass-produced, for example, coming out of East Asia. So that's been a big aspect of what we do. Us being an outdoor brand, just being in the outdoors and being aware of our impact on the environment has been something that has really fed into the family for several generations.

Bryan Koontz (37:21), Yeah.

Bryan Koontz (37:45), Well, and I will say too that that's an approach to sustainability that more people can understand. I mean, I, you know, I think, you know, for better or for worse, there's a lot of people that just don't believe what the scientists tell them anymore. You know, I think the last four years kind of, you know, whatever, we don't need to get into all that. But I think there's a lot of people that are like, okay, I don't know. Like if you're telling me I need to pay another $200 for a pair of cool boots because they decay faster when I'm done with them. Yeah, I'm not sure I'm really willing to do that, but like...

Phil (37:55), Right.

Bryan Koontz (37:55), ...when you can say, look, the boot that is your Sunday sweater, your go-to, you can keep wearing that boot. We can put a new sole on it. We can keep it performing for you. And it's going to last for a long time. And that's not fast fashion. That's the opposite of fast fashion. And that's a type of sustainability I think a lot of folks can really understand. Not that the other stuff doesn't matter. Let's not poison the landfills and all of that for sure. But that makes a ton of sense.

Phil (37:55), Mm-hmm.

Phil (38:00), Right. That's exactly right. You know, and I think some of the other trends that we see, you know, going out is always, as you mentioned before, getting lighter as well. I think that's something that guys are more aware of, especially as they're, you know, if you look at, you know, pack size and pack weights that have come down over time for your backcountry bow hunters, you know, and measuring ounces and things like that, and just being really cognizant of the weight, there's always pressure.

Bryan Koontz (39:00), Yeah.

Phil (39:06), To do that and an innovative company like Zamberlan is able to kind of lead at the forefront, you know, and introduce where it makes sense, lighter weights and so forth, you know, whether it's innovating through our partners in, you know, Vibram or our leather suppliers or upper material suppliers or doing things in new designs and so on that you'll see that continue to come forward. So, and as for us, you know, going forward, we’re really excited about this next year because we're going to start...

Bryan Koontz (39:00), Yeah.

Phil (39:06), Really focusing on a new category of product for the brand. And that's in the outdoor workspace. Yeah, we've been doing wildland firefighting for a few years now and logging, it's kind of touching on the, just kind of dabbing our toe into that with a lot of success. We're going to be expanding that line this year and the year after that and developing kind of that third leg of the stool for Zamberlan, which is really focused on...

Bryan Koontz (39:48), Interesting.

Phil (39:53), That outdoor workspace, be it forestry, trail work, logging, wildland firefighting and so on. I think that's going to be a very interesting growth development for the brand going forward. So we're excited about that.

Bryan Koontz (40:00), Interesting. So these are, when you say work, it's workforce-specific types of professions that meet their, like, if it's a wildland boot, it's going to be wildland certified. I forget what that certification is or whatever. Things like that, other than like the weekend worker, like the dad who wants to go out and chop wood. Not that it's more of that you're targeting certain professions. Is that what that means? OK, yeah.

Phil (40:00), The NFPA, the professional, yeah. That's right. So our work boots today, they're certified in Europe under the European certifications, which are pretty onerous. We've got our Logger Pro, which achieved an S3 certification that is, it's chainsaw proof, it's puncture-resistant, it's anti-static and so on. It uses an aromatic layer inside of it. And it's a very interesting piece of gear.

Bryan Koontz (40:19), Hmm. Wow.

Phil (40:38), It retails at $525, but we've had trouble keeping them in stock, right? Cause they're just so popular. You get a product that performs on that level, like it does with the comfort aspect of a Zamberlan boot, and the market just eats it up. They just love it. You know, and our wildland boot we've had for a few years now, we're on our second iteration of that. And it's, it's differentiated in a couple of ways. One is, you know, we were the first boot to launch that had a stitched on outsole.

Bryan Koontz (40:41), Yeah, right, sure.

Phil (41:07), In a sidewall stitch, right? And so we got, we were inspired. That was, that was a project that I had developed with Marco Zamberlan and we're trying to figure out how to solve the delamination issue with outsoles for wildland firefighters. And I walked into Attili's one night just strolling with my wife, just, you know, hanging out, and we saw the van skate shoes that were sidewall stitched on it. And I was like, there's gotta be a way to do that with this. And we started working with Vibram and had the solution.

Bryan Koontz (41:42), Hmm.

Phil (41:42), And it was problem solved on that one. Yeah, it's a fascinating market. There are a lot of micro opportunities within it. And they all kind of lend themselves to what we're really good at, which is producing highly comfortable, high-performance, long-lasting, professional-grade footwear.

Bryan Koontz (41:42), Super cool.

Bryan Koontz (42:12), Well, I've learned a lot about you guys. I think, you know, I know more about your brand than a lot of folks just because we've been partners for many years now, and it's so great to have you back in the seat at Zamberlan. So, but I'm hoping that people listening to this have learned quite a bit too. And if they have more questions, we can always...

Phil (42:36), Sure.

Bryan Koontz (42:36), ...send them into Guidefitter. We'll make sure we can get them over to Phil and maybe do a follow-up once the new work line is out and coming this year. Is that coming this year in ‘24? Is that going to be next year, ‘25? Spring of ‘25? Okay, yeah.

Phil (42:36), It'll be in spring of ‘25. That's right. We'll have a new lineman boot, which is the Mountain Lite, which is a great lineman boot. And the Delimmer is a new one that's coming for the logging space, which is fascinating. It's a fascinating product that leverages a BOA fit system along with an S7 certification out of Europe, which is a pretty special product. That Delimmer is very nice.

Bryan Koontz (43:00), Does it have like a hard toe, a steel toe? Okay, I was going to say, when I think logging, I think yeah, yeah, steel toe or something like that. Protective toe, let's put that.

Phil (43:02), It's got a composite toe on it. That's right. Yeah.

Phil (43:02), Yeah, it's ready to go. It's a very serious product. Yeah, but we are really appreciative of our partnership with Guidefitter and being able to work with you, Bryan, and the whole team over there has been a great experience for us. Just being able to reach into that guides and outfitters community through the platform has been excellent.

Bryan Koontz (43:37), Super cool.

Phil (43:37), We're always looking to develop those relationships with guides and outfitters and developing new ambassador relationships and so forth and getting those kind of continuous feedback loops are so important to us. And I would really encourage your listeners to do that, to reach out to us and to provide that feedback to us and get in touch with us. If you have an interest in developing a deeper partnership, please do reach out because we're all ears and...

Bryan Koontz (44:12), Yeah.

Phil (44:12), We're a small team, but we're a passionate team and it just means the world to us to be able to work closely with your customers there.

Bryan Koontz (44:42), That's awesome. And you're going to see some new things from us too for brand partners like you guys. Ways that we can do what you just described more easily. Ways that we can get, you know, especially the hardcore pro guides and folks like that who are, you know, putting your products through the, you know, the torture rack, as I call it every day, that they can and that are true brand fans, not these fake influencers that are insta, you know, whatever.

Phil (44:42), Mm-hmm.

Bryan Koontz (44:42), ...but the people who really, really know the product. We're looking for ways and we're developing some ways to make it easier for them to tell the world, shout from the mountaintops proactively, not just waiting until someone says, "Whoa, what are those shoes?" and "What boots do you recommend?" You know, that of course too. So anyway, there are some cool things coming along. I think it'll be great for partners like you, but also just great for our entire community because, you know, there's a lot of knowledge walking around in the heads of our members, minds also from other professions too, like wildland firefighters and...

Phil (45:10), Mm-hmm.

Bryan Koontz (45:10), ...game wardens and all kinds of other folks that make their living in the outdoors that all have their own unique requirements when it comes to the gear that they use. Anyway, more on that. Well, Phil, this has been awesome talking to you. I really appreciate it. I think we could talk for another hour or so about all of those details about why the rest of the footwear and what makes it different and all of that. So maybe we'll save that.

Phil (45:12), Yeah. Absolutely. You may not want to get me going too long, but yeah, keep it interesting for your listeners, for sure.

Bryan Koontz (45:37), And I made a mental note that I'm going to have to, you know, worm my way into a tour sometime of the home country factory. That would be amazing sometime. Yeah.

Phil (45:46), Please do. Yeah, you'd be most welcome to come in. And Marco and Maria would love to have you. I mean, be prepared for some good wine and to get out in the mountains as well with them.

Bryan Koontz (45:57), I think I could suffer through. Yeah, I think I could suffer through. Yeah. Awesome, Phil. Well, thanks again for spending some time with us today.

Phil (46:04), Likewise, Bryan, and I look forward to any follow-ups we might have. There's some other cool projects we've got coming down the pipeline that we're working with some outdoor groups on, and next time maybe we can talk about that. All right. All the best, Bryan. Thank you.

Bryan Koontz (46:15), Sounds great. All right, take care.

Bryan Koontz (46:20), Cool, I think that went well. What do you think? I mean, you're the, I know, it's already, I can't look at that, 46 minutes.

Phil (46:24), Yeah, yeah, that was quick. It was fast. Yeah, and it's easy to get.